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tailcalled's avatar

I think we discussed a similar concept on twitter a bit ago? IMO it would be really good to create a system like this, and it seems like something that it would be natural for the rationalist community to work on.

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Sniffnoy's avatar

Oh boy so I have a bunch of thoughts on this!

1. Professional associations with teeth: So there's an obvious failure state to to be wary of here, which can be seen from the fact that the lawyers' and doctors' guilds already *have* teeth, they just don't use them. Like, from what I gather, they seem to have gotten into a state where, rather than attempting to maintain trust in their professions by expelling wrongdoers, they instead attempt to maintain trust by *not* expelling wrongdoers except in the worst cases, figuring that the way most people tend to think means that each expulsion will contribute to the impression that lawyers (or doctors) in *general* are untrustworthy, rather than that the remaining ones must be trustworthy. This has the obvious consequences.

I do have to wonder if perhaps a factor here is that their teeth are maybe too strong, i.e., you're not allowed to practice at all without being a member. But this seems like a failure mode that could happen regardless, and indeed it seems like we do see essentially the same phenomenon in some academic fields as well, even where there are basically no teeth at all; basically it seems to be pretty common. So the big question is how to avoid it? That's not something I have any answer to, but it really requires an answer.

...is this one of the things that "anyone, even an outsider, can start an investigation" is meant to address? It does seem likely to me that the sticking point is largely *starting* investigations, not biasing the verdicts. (Although I assume the point about the juries is meant to address that, too.) So maybe this would help here.

Of course, letting anyone start an investigation means that -- like with real courts -- you then also need some way to prevent people from abusing that, i.e., some way to have frivolous cases dismissed early. You probably can't fine people for bringing frivolous cases (or can you? if you set it up right maybe you can), but if someone does it repeatedly you can them from bringing more cases, I guess? (In real courts that's rarely done because preventing from someone from suing is, y'know, really bad, but doing it in this more informal setting may not be such a problem.)

Except, some of the abusive uses might come in ways that *aren't* so easily dismissed as frivolous. Thinking about medicine again, there's already a problem of legally-defensive healthcare; doctors aren't really worried so much about losing their license, but they are worried about being sued for malpractice. How do you impose more consequences without making things even more *defensible* rather than more *correct*? This seems troublesome. But I guess you were thinking of this more in the fact context rather than the medical context? I was just thinking of the medical context because it seems there like the AMA is a dysfunctional example of professional-association courts. (With, I guess, the public courts being dysfunctional in the *opposite* direction in this context -- one not strict enough, the other too strict.)

2. Argument trees! (Or graphs.) Argument graphs are so great. They are so underused. To respond to your and Rand's discussion of Wikipedia -- sure, Wikipedia can summarize a controversy, but only to a certain depth before they start pruning it, and they sure don't have argument graphs!

Man, the whole thing where people just ignore or misrepresent their opponents' arguments instead of actually responding to them annoys me a lot. Although, once a position becomes sufficiently common, it can happen that people bothering to actually argue for intelligently largely vanish, leaving it appearing unsupported.

Like I remember being really glad to see you write this essay a while ago: https://srconstantin.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/in-defense-of-individualist-culture/ It's a point that, though it once needed to be argued for, has faded into the background so much that few arguing for it are really sure *how* to, leading to primarily arguments against it getting circulated; and those arguments against it largely ignore the arguments for it, because they're largely not made, while the few arguments made for it address their opponents only weakly because they just haven't really learned the better arguments. It's a real stupid equilibrium.

(...I need to actually write some of those poltical essays I keep talking about, problem is I'm already overloaded for time, writing about politics is unpleasant, and I have a huge math backlog... maybe after March I'll have some time...)

...jumping back to the topic of argument graphs, and getting a controversy properly written down, can I go on a tangential rant here about how people misrepresent Sabine Hossenfelder? There is so much rounding off of what she says to "dark matter is probably wrong and modified gravity is probably right", even though if you read her actualy posts her position is pretty clearly that the orthodox position is probably mostly correct and that her complaint is that the alternative positions are being misrepresented and underexplored compared to their probability, but not that that probability is higher than that of the orthodox position. And the arguments she makes for this seem to be basically ignored and not responded to as far as I've seen! Are they right? It's hard to say when people aren't properly addressing them! Put it all in an argument graph and make this plain, I say. :P (I mean, I would encourage Hossenfelder to be less sensationalist, and sometimes she seems to pretty clearly emphasize the wrong thing, but that's another matter.)

...OK I thought I had more to say on this but I can't remember it. Oh well.

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